mitsuru Koshiyama

This interview with Mitsuru Koshiyama was conducted on September 19th, 2001, in the immediate days following 9/11. This in-depth interview with Mits provides a rare but vital insight into the resistance of the Heart Mountain Fair Play Committee, and the motivations that sparked the group’s advocacy for the reinstatement of their civil liberties. Mits’ perspective on the morality of the Japanese American factions at the time is also invaluable, as he was willing to speak candidly about the positions that he believed were detrimental to the morale of the community. Mits passed away just eight years after this interview in 2009.   

I'm here at the home of Mits Koshiyama in San Jose. I will start out just formally asking your full name, and where and when you were born.

My full name is Mitsuru. I was born in Mountain View, California. Which is probably about ten miles from San Jose. And there was a Japanese community there. I don't know if people told you about the Japanese communities, but they sort of banded together for survival, you know, because of racism, they couldn't start businesses and buy farms or anything like that. So they were mostly tenant farmers or sharecroppers, and they mostly stayed in their own community, had their own churches, whether they were Buddhist or Christian. Then I guess they felt more secure being together.

Can you tell me when you were born?

I was born August 7th, 1924, which makes me 77 right now. I never thought I'd get this old, you know, when you're young, you never think you're going to get old. But, that's one of the facts of life that you don't worry about those things when you're young. But when you get old, you know, you realize, you know, how fast life it goes past, you know?

And I guess in our life it was really marred by the evacuation and incarceration. Most of our life was trying to come back in, trying to, get back to a normal life. And it was really a struggle. People don't really realize it, but, uh, it was. It was a real struggle for all the Japanese-American families. And when we came out of camp, the Issei and Nisei, I think they had received $25 per person and a train ticket back to California and the government didn't help in any way. All they did was give you a train ticket, never found you a place to live, to try to make a comeback or anything. We all had to do it all ourselves.

Yeah, I heard there was no welfare, no aids– 

No aid or anything. Either you had to survive somehow, and it was tough. It was really hard on our parents. The government took us out of our homes and our livelihood and put us into the camps and one day released us. No help at all. And today, even today, I just can't understand it. You know, they talk about democracy and treating all the citizens equally and all that, but, you know, that's not true. I know that's not true. And I have really, a lot of reservations about how the government treats people they don't really like. In fact, our camp, Heart Mountain camp, was one of the very few camps that protested, and had groups of people protesting. Even the Japanese Americans described some of the camps as happy camps. I really believe that because there were no protests at some of those camps. No protest at all. They went along with it.

Yes.

It’s hard to understand. They went along and accepted this racism and a lot of them condemned the people that spoke up against racism at that time, a lot of groups demanded their rights. So I think the camps were very divided.

Yes, very divided. Well it seems to me that there are people who just didn't want to take the time to even think about it and it's just too much energy for people who would just try to survive. 

Yeah, I can understand that because those days are very scary. I was 17 years old. I know that Japanese Americans are very frightened of what's going to happen, so I can understand, you know, people not speaking up. And I know that a lot of people are angry and upset about it, but like you said at the time, they're afraid to speak up. 

Well, the point I'm trying to make is that the people that want to cooperate with the government have the right to do that, you know? But when these people became leaders in the camps and they oppressed the people that spoke up for the return of the constitutional rights, I believe that was wrong. They joined the government in oppressing the people who want their rights back.

I thought they were wrong. I always thought that we should always fight for the return of our constitutional rights while we were in camp, even though it was an unpopular thing to do at the time.

What gives you the courage to do that? Well, I mean, weren't you raised to follow teachers instructions and not make waves?

Because I thought it was the right thing to do.

Now I know you are part of a group of people. The Fair Play Committee.

Yes.

The group gave you more power to be visible and vociferous. I know there was a document that you put out, or a statement. If you were in a camp that didn't have a group, do you think you would have been just as vociferous?

I don't think so. I think you are correct in saying that since we’re an organized group, it was a lot stronger, and I heard from the other dissidents of other camps that didn't have a group leader. So they were weak. And a lot of camps had dissidents but they were broken up because they weren't organized.

Let me put this one thing out there and Heart Mountain, and other camps. The leaders of the dissidents were Nisei who were born in Hawaii and later came to the mainland, they were very vocal. Much more than the local Nisei.

I think I heard that because they weren't used to being a minority in Hawaii, they didn't have this minority psychology about them.

I think you're absolutely right.

So here you are. You didn't grow up in Hawaii, you didn't grow up in a family where your parents said stand up for your rights, but you decided to join this organized group and let yourself be heard. Tell me what it was like to join this group. 

As I said before, there's this Hawaiian Nisei named Kiyoshi Okamoto. And even before the draft came up, he was going around camp, calling himself the Fair Play Committee of One. And all he talked about is the deprivation of our constitutional rights. And his main aim was to go around and educate people about the loss of constitutional rights because nobody, nobody, the leadership in the camps, never talked about constitutional rights. Never. People might say I'm wrong, but if you look at all the camp papers, all the editors there, they never wrote about the loss of constitutional rights and that we should fight for the return of our constitutional rights, never. 

All they did was they encourage people to cooperate with the government, even though they probably knew it was wrong. Well, this person went around all around the camp talking about it, and a lot of people listened to him, you know?

And this led to a formation of the Fair Play Committee. When the draft came up, under the leadership of Kiyoshi Okamoto, there were about seven members who became leaders and they thought that we should all fight for the return of our constitutional rights before going to the army. He said that's only right. We should be free American citizens enjoying the very things we're supposed to fight and defend.

So I heard the average Nisei at the time of Pearl Harbor was 19 years old. So this is a fairly young group. But there are some Isseis who were not eligible for the draft and younger Isseis who were part of this Fair Play committee, too. Do you think that added to the strength of the group?

You know, Kiyoshi Okamoto and the leaders of the Fair Play Committee were much older. They weren’t subject to the draft. But they fought for the younger people because they felt that this was the right thing to do, that this draft in a segregated army era without the returning of our constitutional rights first was wrong.

Were any of your brothers part of this committee?

No. My older brother, he said you people are probably right, and his opinions were right, but he said in the state of Wyoming, if you go to trial, you won't have a chance.

So because you won't have a chance in the state of Wyoming. He didn't actively support you?

Yeah, I think we had a lot of people that we're interested in the committee because of the meetings. Drew huge crowds, you know? I think a lot of people don't want to contest the issues. They were young then and I think they served during the Korean War around that time. So I was probably only just with my family. My sister, well, you know, they're very patriotic, you know? So I might have hurt their feelings.

So then your brothers, Albert and James served after camp?

My brother George more or less went along with the thinking of Japanese American leaders, you know? He was over 50 years, a member of the JACL. He supported it.

See you have to understand him, his position, he didn't think the government was right but he still, you know, didn’t want to protest and fight it. I see lots of resistors as being probably like me when they're young, you know, very independent, thought they are 150% of Americans.

Well, how about your parents? What did they say?

My parents. They didn't say a word.

Really? What did that mean, though?

My parents are never what you call “pro-Japan” or they were probably gone to Tule Lake or something like that. No, they accepted America as their home and tried to raise the kids as good American citizens. They never said anything to me, not a word.

And did you interpret that as them saying you decide your own destiny or?

I think so. I didn’t tell my brother anything either, you know, who is in the army. Yeah. They were more like they accepted things as they came, and didn't make waves.

Maybe you can help paint the picture of what your family was like if you can tell me what happened when the loyalty questionnaire was administered. I mean, your parents could not fill it out because there were Japanese citizens, but you were of age, and so were your sisters and brothers.

I answered Yes/Yes for questions 27 and 28. You know that loyalty, those are the two most important questions for me, you know, as a potential draftee. And for that yes. I am willing to serve in the United States Army but only if my constitutional rights are returned to me first. And on question 28 about the emperor of Japan, I said, I don't have any allegiance to the Emperor of Japan. I said, I never did. 

To me, everything that's written there during the war time when you signed it, that's the thinking of the people at the time. See, they put all restrictions to limit the power of potential dissidents in the camps and because they don't want any problems in the camps.

I'm surprised that JACL, who cooperated with the government, that's they go as far as to oppress their own Japanese Americans. And that really surprises me because here my brother and I, well he was always JACL anyway. Here I was a JACL person at the time too. I was a member and they still oppress me. The story about a Nisei being oppressed or Issei being oppressed to get jobs by leading Japanese Americans. That happened to a friend of mine, who was one of the leading dissidents of the camps. He wasn’t even in camp. He was in Denver, Colorado. His name was Jimmy Omura. And he was our editor of the Rocky Mountain Japanese American paper.

And he, through this newspaper, said the dissidents who are fighting for their constitutional rights before service, should be respected. And that the course that we're following is not wrong. But JACL, and with the government's approval, punished Jimmy Omura. He was put on trial for some kind of subversion or, I don't know, sedition or something and he won his case. Even at that prejudiced place he won his case because the prosecution couldn't overcome that freedom of press.

But still, even though he won his case, he was oppressed by the JACL and he could never get a position as a newspaper man again. Never. Never. Every time he got a job, the JACL put pressure on the company to fire him.

Oh, that's bad.

This is really a black mark on a Japanese American. A black mark that JACL could never overcome, they claim that there were civil rights organizations, but during wartime, they never were. They were the oppressors. I'm not trying to make trouble or anything, but just common sense. Just common sense that you should be enjoying what you're going to fight and defend.

What was morale like at the trial?

Morale was very good.

I've seen the photo of the people sitting there, you know.

I might have been naive but I thought we really had a good case, it just common sense tells you that we had a good case. We win our case, the government puts us back in California, we join the army, it's all over. You know, that's what I thought.

Do you think others thought that way too? Do you think the others thought-

I don't know how they thought that, but the first couple of days in court after listening to the judge and the federal prosecutor, we realized what we were up against, I guess, what you call it, facing reality. The judge is very prejudiced. You know, first thing he comes to court, he says, “You Jap boys,” you know, it's like that. That shows prejudice already.

Then your morale must have been really low.

Oh, yeah. When the judge says “I find him guilty,” it just sunk, you know. I couldn’t believe it. But all through my prison sentence and everything, I felt that I, I was always right and that I was a victim of not only oppression from the government, but from our own people who wrote negative things about us. But I think today JACL has apologized. That's good enough for me. The government has apologized.

You're an easy man.

Yeah, I am. I believe them. My Japanese American people. You know. What I look like, you say you're Japanese American and everything like that. Well, I want to meet people like this. You know, I'm very interested in Japanese American. What we all went through, what your friends went through. What your grandparents went through and all that. It’s interesting to me in a way. That’s why I like to listen to what people have to say.

There are some good stories out there. Amazing stories.

I go through these other places where I'm asked to give a talk or short talk or something like that, and I met some 442 vets. They came up and said they really believe that I shouldn't be – well, I don't know the exact words, but we're not wrong in fighting for the return of our constitutional right. And it makes you feel good when you learn from veterans like that. They understand.

When I hear it though, it bothers me a little bit that they said you weren't wrong. Why can't they say you were right?

Well, that's true, too. But I think it's a kind step in the right direction for reconciliation. 

Do you have a message that you can give younger people today, whether it has to do with fighting for your beliefs or constitution or draft, do you have something that you'd like to impart to them? Words of encouragement? Wisdom?

Okay, I have this to say. Unfortunately, there are times when there's going to be wars. That's a fact of life and we have to face them. But I believe that if you're a good American citizen, that you should be willing to serve. I believe that, but if your rights are taken away as an American citizen because of racism, put into a concentration camp and denied the very things you are supposed to fight for, I believe you have to stand up and fight for the return of your constitutional rights.

First, I believe that's being a good American, but in this world today, after the terrorist attack on New York City, we have to reevaluate ourselves and say that, “Hey, there's going to be times when we have to stand up and fight for our country, but we have to fight as all Americans, not individually or have, animosity toward minorities that might look like the enemy.” I learned this lesson during World War Two that we Japanese-Americans were 100% Americans, but we were denied the right, uh, to fight for our constitutional rights by executive order. 

We should all always be protected by the Constitution and that we all should have our day in court to fight for our rights. We should also remember that America is built on many, many different groups and that we all have to band together to make our country greater. I hope I can get my message across.

I'm not ashamed that I was found guilty and put into prison. I think the government realized that they made a bad mistake. In 1947, President Truman gave the resistors from Heart Mountain a presidential pardon. That's something that escaped a lot of Japanese American leaders, that will receive the presidential pardon, you know? Yeah, I'm sure that the government would never give us a presidential pardon unless they knew that we were right and that they were wrong.

Amazing. To me, the fact that we had a redress movement, that the government listened to the people seems like a big victory. Do you have a comment about redress?

Yeah, I think the redress was a battle that was brought up by the younger Japanese-Americans. And no doubt that all the Nisei thought about it too. But if it wasn’t for the younger ones, it would have never been possible. And with $20,000, what can you buy for $20,000 today? You can buy a decent car. But I think if you erase a sore spot in Japanese America that we were guilty of something that we weren't guilty of, and that the apology was important I think – that the government was understanding.

They realized they made a mistake and they apologized for it. I give them credit for that. But this evacuation and incarceration, I think it did a lot of, a lot of damage to the thinking of Japanese Americans because it took them a very long time to recover, more than people realize.

Interview conducted by Grace Megumi Fleming. JAMsj thanks Grace for allowing the museum to archive and share these oral histories