Katsumi Hikido

Katsumi (Kats) Hikido, a native of the Bay Area, is a soft-spoken, thoughtful man. His conversation here with Grace Fleming, which involve his contemplations on the past and the chaos of war, are told through a highly esteemed and lauded perspective of a member of the 442nd Regimental Combat Team. His parents were sharecroppers around the Bay Area before the war, and just as Kats was attending UC Berkeley to pursue a college education, his family was uprooted to Turlock assembly center and Gila River, Arizona with the passing of E.O 9066. Once in camp, Kats’ life continued as normally as it could until the notorious loyalty questionnaire. He nearly answered no/no, but was convinced to change his answers by a sympathetic administration worker. This would change the course of Kats’ life, as he found himself part of what would become the most highly decorated unit in American military history. He would eventually be severely injured which would allow his discharge from service. 

But it was his religious and spiritual faith that kept him strong and believing in a bigger force than himself throughout his life. “I believe a person is put on this earth for a certain purpose. And it's up to you to make the best of your opportunities. Not just for yourself.”

Can we start out with you telling me where you were born and when you were born?

I was born in San Francisco on January 22nd 1924. Actually we were living in Danville at the time but you my dad and my mother went to San Francisco and they had a midwife there and that's where I was born. 

Now what number child are you, are you their number one? 

No I have a sister who is older and then I have three younger brothers.

So you're the oldest son. Can you tell me a little bit about your parents -- where they're from and what kind of work they did? 

Well, both my parents are from Wakayama. See I think my dad came over by 1918 or something like that. But he was basically a farm laborer. And after he'd been here for a while then he called my mother over and they were married. But basically he was a farmer most of his life.

Now did your parents know each other in Japan or was this arranged? 

I'm pretty sure it was arranged. I don't think he knew her before. She came here by 1921, I think.

And did they settle in the Danville area immediately?

Yeah. It was in the Danville area and they were in the Bay Area, mostly. Until about 1930, and then we moved to a place called Tassajara, which is near Pleasanton. And they were growing tomatoes out there, still farming. And we lived in Tassajara until 1942 when we were evacuated.

So were all the children born while your parents lived in Danville?

All except the youngest. 

Well since we're talking about your parents do you remember their names?

Oh yeah. My dad's name Bungo and my mother's name was Sadako. Or is Sadako -- she's still alive. She's 98. 

So you remember growing tomatoes in the Pleasanton area. Can you paint me a picture of what life was like before WWII?

Well they were basically sharecropping tomatoes at that time and so well, it was very hard life for my mom and my dad. And you know as kids, we were expected to go out in the field, which we did. So during the tomato growing season things were pretty difficult. But basically though my dad always appreciated having an education because he's one of the few Japanese who came over here and had a high school education. So he always knew the value of education. So he always insisted that we put our education first. So even though there's a lot of hard work to do in the fields he always insisted that we go to school and we did. So after we got high school then we all went to a university or college. And 1941, I was going to University California in Berkeley.

So when December 7th, you were a freshman at UC Berkeley?

Uh huh, and I was living in Berkeley, I was living with a family in Berkeley. You asked about Pearl Harbor day. Yeah it's kind of funny because obviously it was on Sunday, we always used to go to church on Sundays. So on this particular day December 7th we were going to church as usual and as we're driving along we see the people yelling at us, they're kind of shaking their fists at us and we thought, "What's going on?" And then we turn on the radio and we heard the news that Japan had bombed Pearl Harbor. So it was kind of devastating. It's you know, it just threw our whole world into a great deal of uncertainty you know what I mean? Immediately you know, here we are going to school, planning for the future. And then immediately the whole view of the future change. Of course it changed for everybody else, too. It wasn't just us.

Now when you say you were living with a family in Berkeley, this is another Japanese American family?

Yeah, the family name Yamaguchi. We used to go to church in Berkeley. You know surprisingly because we lived in Pleasanton, every Sunday we would go all the way to Berkeley to go to church. These people were members of that church and they were kind enough to let me stay with them.

Now how did your parents afford to send you to university when they were just sharecropping tomatoes?

Well you know, University of California was very cheap. It was unlike today -- for residents it didn't cost any tuition or anything. Just 27 dollars for incidental fees. So basically the only cost was for books. And some for the living expenses and things. But basically I used to work in the summer.

Did you farm or what did you do during the summer?

We used to go find work like picking fruit, picking tomatoes and doing that kind of work. 

Now did your older sister go to college?

No she didn't. She didn't go. She finished high school, then she went to an Arts and Crafts school for a while.

So here you are, you grew up in Danville, Pleasanton, working hard on the farm. And I've been told that life was really hard like you said, you said it was pretty hard.

And you know the living conditions, for most of the Japanese farmers at that time, living conditions were very, very primitive. And as I always tell my kids, that after we went to camp, it raise our standard of living [laughs]. You know I'm just joking but you know because of that thing. But anyway it kind of blows their mind when I tell them that. But actually though in some respects, it did improve I think. 'Cause you know we have hot/cold running water which you never had before.

I want to hear about that because I know a lot of people had an outhouse in the back and they had to boil water or heat water if you wanted warm water. And some of the houses were more like shacks. 

Oh yeah. You know dirt floors. 

Did you have dirt floors? 

No we didn't have dirt floors fortunately but some of the families did. It's hard to imagine this day and age to imagine people -- well I guess people still lived in some of the labor camps like that but for Japanese Americans, people I guess don't realize how things were before the war. So you know it was difficult.

So in a way, I look back on that and I was really thankful that things turned out the way they did. Because despite the hardship of the evacuation and internment and implications and all that, it really changed our lives for the better. I could remember in camp like -- my dad and my mom would both wake up at dawn and worked 'til dusk in the field you know, but in the camp life was much easier for them. They had a place to stay and meals and they got to socialize with their friends and my mom took up some of the finer arts like painting and that kind of thing. So in a way, the change that occurred in our lives in some respects was for the better.

Now I understand the material part. You know that the camp construction may not have been any worse than where you used to live. The fact that there was food sort of guaranteed. Roof over your head, three meals a day kind of thing. But I'd like to know how it felt to be treated as enemy aliens. Can you describe that?

Yeah. Because it's -- you know here we were all raised to be American citizens. Our parents always raised us to respect the government and be Americans. Don't bring shame to the family that kind of thing. But here with no fault of our own, we all of a sudden are classified as enemy aliens. And not already considered to be enemy aliens but considered to be dangerous. You know, dangerous enough to be locked up. So it was kind of a downer, it was kind of depressing thought to be put in that position. And also loss of freedom. That's a pretty significant thing to realize that you're here you're locked up. You're no longer in control of your future. But despite the fact that I said my dad had an easier time and things like this but both of them, both my mom and dad realized that kind of life was not good for us. You know that living that kind of life too long would be kind of really--have an impact on our mentality, you know. So as soon as that opportunity came for us to leave camp, they insisted that my brother and I leave so that we could continue our schooling.

One person I interviewed talked about his father not wanting his kids to have the prison mentality. He talked about being lazy, being dependent on the government. Is that what you're asking about?

Yeah because he realized that even more that kind of life is not too mentally challenging. I mean you just do what you're told. You lose your ambition, you lose your vision for the future. So we were fortunate that my parents were visionary enough to do that. Because some of the parents didn't want their children to leave, they didn't want their families to be split.

So you felt your parents had the right attitude given the situation.

Yeah. I don't know where they got it but they always seemed to have a good grasp of the future, yes. 

It seems to me a select population from Japan that have the vision enough and the courage enough to cross this huge Pacific Ocean to start a new life would be the best of the best in terms of surviving hardships like this.

Yeah that's a good way of putting it. Because they were just kids, you know, in their teens, coming over on their own. [They must have had] tremendous faith for the future I guess. But you're right they had the survivor instinct.

And it's not just materialistic either -- it's something beyond that. How would you describe that? What was it?

It's much more than just making a lot of money or making it economically. It was being more human, I guess. I mean fulfilling your potential as a human being. Although they never really verbalized that. In their actions they were thinking that there's more to human life than just the material things. So that's why they all insisted that we get an education.

So you went to an assembly center first. Which one did you go to? 

Turlock. 'Cause all the people from our Danville, Martinez, all through that area. We all went to Turlock. The fairgrounds. So we spent about two and a half months there. And then after about two and a half months, we went to Gila River in Arizona. But you know that Turlock experience was kind of a bad experience, let's put it that away. I mean it was, you know the living conditions under assembly center was pretty primitive. They were tar paper shacks.

How did it feel? Did you feel like they were treating you like garbage or you were enemy aliens or animals? 

Not really. They didn't abuse us or treat us badly. It's hard to describe. Just knowing that we were sort of prisoners. That was a bad part. But as far as physically, they didn't really mistreat us or didn't really abuse us or do anything like that. 

Can you tell me how it felt to file into this assembly center with your luggage and seeing all these faces of people who are, I would imagine, resigned.

Oh yeah, people were saying, "Shikata ga nai," this is the way it is. So I didn't hear anybody really complaining or angry outbursts or things like this. Resigning and accepting they just said that we had no choice. I mean better make the most of it. I think for the Issei parents though maybe, they might have a little bit harder time. 'Cause for the kids, as long as you had your parents -- you don't feel lost, you know what I mean?  So fortunately -- although they did separate like in Alice's family, they took her father away and he was in a different camp -- we were fortunate in a sense that our family was kept together. But like I say a lot of the families, the fathers were separated so I think in those situations the mothers had a real hard time.

Yes. The big difference between Isseis and Niseis is that the Niseis had their parents and they were kids.

Yeah. And you know at that age things are kind of an adventure anyway [laughs]. It's something new.

Did you feel it was an adventure?

Yeah in certain respects. You know it was a new experience. Because before the war none of us had been more than 50 miles away from home. So our horizons were very limited before the war. We'll say one thing of the war time, it certainly broadened our horizons.

But you know in listening to just what you're saying, is an optimistic point of view. To be able to make this generalization that for most Niseis it was an adventure just there -- it's a generalization but people were kind of optimistic, like you going to college. You figure you could be an exception, you could get an engineering job. Would you be willing to tell me what you think the Issei parents went through? What do you think they were going through?

Oh I think some of the Issei had a very difficult time. I'm not sure my parents did because they never really talked about it. But I think a lot of the Isseis were quite bitter, I'm sure. Because a lot of them had worked for quite a while and just when they were getting to the point -- my parents were in the same situation -- just when they get to the point where they could see the light of day, after all their labors living to see some payoff, and all of a sudden it's all taken away. That has to be devastating. And they're at the age, maybe in their late 30s and early 40s at that time, and to have to start over at that point after having worked 20 years at hard labor. I mean a lot of people would give up. And so I think a lot of them were quite worried about the future -- would they be able to start over? And I think some of them must have thought that they were going to get deported to Japan. You have to really credit the Issei over their dignity and their acceptance, their hardship in their lives.

I also just heard recently that landowners would lease their land to white people at a cheaper rate. Did that happen to you?

Oh yeah and not only that but a lot of the Issei people had to take land which is very marginal, that nobody else could make productive. And because of their hard work and their perseverance, that's how a lot of these great farms came into being because the Japanese Americans took these marginal lands and mad them productive. But you're right -- I think the white people did take advantage of some of the Issei farmers.

See my parents were mostly sharecropping, which was they get a percentage. So whether that percentage is higher or lower I don't really have any idea. The Isseis had contributed a great deal to making California a good agricultural state. After working so hard to make the land productive, then all of a sudden they lose it. That in itself was devastating.

Right, not just their personal gain but to see the land itself that they didn't own, that they had worked so hard to make productive. 

Now you told me a little bit about the day Pearl Harbor was bombed that these people were shaking their fists. I guess mostly white people shaking their fists as you and the family drove to church. Did anything happen at church do you remember? 

Gee no I don't remember too much. You know you mentioned about the school, whether students were anti-- but no at the University of California, people were quite friendly, actually. I mean at least not overtly hostile. And even in the community where we lived in Pleasanton, our neighbors there weren't overtly hostile either so we were fortunate. But getting back to school, the professors were pretty sympathetic to the situation and you know the thing about is  right after Pearl Harbor, you know it's at the end of the semester and now then all of the Nisei had to make a decision. Should we leave and all go back to our parents' place or should we stay in school? And so about half the Nisei left to go join their but the half of us stayed in school. And so I stayed in school until about May. And that's when my dad called and said better come home because we have to evacuate.

But again the professors were quite good to us and said that since we had completed most of the semester, he would give us full credit and they did. Even though we were excused from taking the finals. At that time you know, it didn't really make much difference to us but it turned out that after the war it made a difference because having that credit for the extra year, meant that we didn't have to repeat that year. 

What was the atmosphere like? Were you scared to death, were you just mildly curious? I mean what was it like when you found out Pearl Harbor had been bombed and President Roosevelt make this speech that makes the Japanese look like they were sneaky horrible people? And you were hearing probably pretty accurate reports about the atrocities that the Imperial Army was committing.

No I wasn't. You know it's interesting but I wasn't fearful or anything. I guess I was kind of naive because I figured that well, I'm an American citizen. So what could they do? And I wasn't really fearful for my personal safety or things like this. Although some of my friends I know they suffered -- some of my friends were shot at and this kind of thing. Because one of our friends used to live in  [inaudible] Valley at the time and she was just telling us the other day that the parents of one of the families were killed and left the kids as orphans. And so that was a pretty traumatic thing. But in our area, so far as I know, there were no really over hostile acts.

So their parents were killed. Children orphaned. 

Yeah she called them misguided patriots. Just came and shot the parents. 

Both of them. Well these children are still probably alive to tell this story. 

But fortunately they had a church, the Japanese church there to take care of them. 

So you were feeling pretty confident about yourself as an American citizen. And then you start hearing these stories. 

And then we got evacuated and interned. I kind of said, hey what's going on? So it kind of shakes your faith in the United States a little bit. Like hey what have I done wrong, you know?

A lot of young people said they had fun in camp -- socializing, doing sports. What was your experience?

Yeah that's true, I mean for that aspect of it. Because like most of these families, kids are raised very strictly at least at that time. And especially where we lived, we were sort of an isolated area, and very little social interaction with other families. 

So when you went to camp it opened up a whole new world of having to develop relationships with other people and learned how to get along with other people. So from that standpoint it kind of broadened your horizons. And then also, it was fun in certain respects because you play with other people. 

Can you tell me the other respects where it wasn't fun?

Well yeah there were some aspects that weren't fun. I mean, no freedom, can't go anywhere and you can't buy anything. You're very limited in the things you can do.

Did it bother you that there was barbed wire and guards up in the tower or did it just sort of fade out from your vision?

Oh yeah, it bothers you whenever you become aware of it but most of the time it's in the background. You accept the fact that you're never going to go out so--and then once your mindset is like that I guess it does sort of fade into the background. But whenever you go out near the edge of the camp or you see these watchtowers, then it does become more -- it just became something that you wish weren't there.

It bothered you? Maybe somewhere deep somewhere, but you didn't look at it usually?

I mean you know, you mentioned that it bothers you deep down inside. Yeah it does because for a long time I didn't really realize it but over the years when I talk about it like this, I find myself getting really emotional. And it's hard to understand why, you know? And so I didn't realize that hey, it did have a much deeper impact on me than. It's hard to explain. You know you get really emotional. I mean I get really emotional, I just feel kind of teary.

And you were talking about your faith in this government, you had this naive faith in our government and it was shaken. I mean it takes quite a bit to shake such confidence.

But it was quite a bit [laughs]. You know taking away your freedom. Uprooting you from your home and things like this I mean those are serious things. Particularly when you realize that you haven't done anything wrong. 

I talked to some people who said that their parents had this attitude that if they were in Japan as enemy aliens something worse would have happened and therefore the U.S. government was being generous to them. 

Oh I'm sure that's true.

Do you think your parents felt that way -- that the U.S. government was treating them fairly mildly considering the situation? 

I don't know that, I kind of think that may be the case. I don't think they were comparing it with being in Japan or things like this. I guess I don't know the answer to that. 

Now your father was educated with a high school education. And I've talked to some people who said that their parents had really studied the American Constitution. Part of the reason for coming to United States was not just for a monetary gain but their vision of being able to live in the United States was much bigger than that -- they believed in the Constitution. They believed that this was a land of opportunity that went beyond just goods. And so then to be locked up in this idealistic land that was the terrible part of it.

Yeah that was really hard for them because it really shook their faith. Now I'm not sure what my parents -- because my parents became citizens as soon as they were able to, both of them. Well I guess my dad had studied the Constitution a little bit. But I think it was also the war sort of changed a lot of the Isseis to stay. Before the war I think a lot of the Isseis that we'll make our [inaudible] and then go back to Japan.

I think my mother to a certain extent had that feeling that eventually they want to go to Japan. But I noticed that after the war they had given up that idea.

What did the war do to their decision, their ideas?

I guess they thought Japan was defeated or something like that and so things weren't the same. Either that or else they realized that since we had all been educated here and all of us had been in the military service here, I guess they realized that our place was here.

It's kind of ironic isn't it? They go through this extra hardship because of their ancestry and at the same time they realize they're going to stay here, be permanent residents here.

I think too that their thinking probably evolved, too and they realized that going back to Japan was just a dream kind of a thing that motivated them to work so hard. But then they realized things here aren't that bad. After the war, things got a lot better for most people.

I mean after the war it was really hard to resettle. But at the same time it was better. 

I don't want to minimize the resettlement period but after that period of resettlement, the opportunities were much better. Everybody's standard of living got a lot better. Certainly ours did. 

You were talking about military service -- can you tell me a little bit about when the loyalty questionnaire came out?

Oh yeah yeah, I need to talk about that because you know because that loyalty questionnaire was probably the most traumatic and divisive thing that the Nisei had to go through. So if you understand what happened to the Niseis during that questionnaire, I think you go a long way to understanding what happened to the Japanese. But basically, this is my own thinking, but I think what happened was we were interned in 1942 and in 1943, I think they began to realize that hey, we've got all these loyal American citizens locked up here.

So they began to realize that maybe they oughta to start letting us out. But then they were faced with a dilemma all like all bureaucrats are. "So we put these people in the camp because it had to be a security risk. You we can't all of a sudden let them out because that way we'd be admitting we made a mistake. So I kind of think that somebody came up with this idea of this questionnaire. And that will be their excuse for letting them out. This may not be true but it's what I think.

But then considering that that's what the purpose of that was and then, I wondered for a long time -- why did Nisei take this thing so seriously? Why was it such a traumatic thing? And then I realized that like you said earlier, you said that you were being asked to give up your Japanese side. I think that's exactly what happened with the questionnaire because the first 26 questions were kind of innocuous and factual. Where do you live and that kind of thing. But you number 27 and 28 -- 27 had to do with would you serve in the military services including combat? And 28 was will you forswear any loyalty to the emperor of Japan? Well, see what was underlying that question -- because what they're going to do with the question was if you answered yes/yes, you were considered to be an American and loyal; if you said no/no you're considered to be disloyal Japanese. And so you had to answer one way or the other. And the choice you were making there was "Are you American or are you Japanese?" 

And it wasn't simply a loyalty thing, it was an identity thing, I think. Because you were  being asked to choose. So are you an American or are you Japanese? And if you said yes/yes, you're being asked to give up your Japanese side and vice versa. You said no/no you're giving up your American side. And it's not that easy to split yourself in two. And when you're asked to deny a part of your essence, your being, it has a lot of psychological impacts. And I think that's what happened to the Nisei. It's one of those situations where like one of my friends say, you're damned if you did and damned if you didn't. It was kind of a Hobson's choice.

But anyway we went through that and now I think a lot of the Niseis answered yes/yes. And therefore denied the Japanese side. I think a lot of Niseis, whether subconscious or not, it's sort of a psychological thing when you're forced to make that kind of a choice. You know the human mind has to put up a defense, it kind of numbs you. And I think that's why a lot of Niseis are not able to express their feelings very well. The Niseis tend to be kind of very stoic people, I guess. And I kind of think that maybe this experience we went through is sort of the cause of that. 

But anyway to get back to the story. Yeah I did go through that and initially, we were subjected to a lot in the camp -- we were in Gila -- and there was a lot of pressure to say no/no, sign no/no. So initially for question 27, the way I answered was no, I would not serve in the service unless I was set free, and then for the 28, I know I could not say that I'm disloyal to the United States. And I never did have any loyalty to the emperor of Japan. So I didn't have too much trouble saying no to that, although a lot of people thought that was a trick question.

But when I said no, I won't serve in the service, the person who was administering this thing, he was a pretty sincere person. And he was telling me that, "You know gee, I think you're making a mistake. Do you really feel that that's what you want to say?" He says, "I kind of think that you're doing a bad thing." Bad for me. So I said, well no, that's what I want to say. He said, "Okay, it's your life, then." But then what he said to me kind of stuck with me and so for several days it really bothered me. And finally I said well, I guess maybe he's right so I went back and changed it. And luckily he let me change it back to yes. So it was a yes/yes.

Now this person in the administration, was he Japanese American or was he a Caucasian? 

No he was a Caucasian. I can see him sitting there.

So what exactly was it that he said that stuck in your mind?

Well he says are you sure you want to do that? "It could be a very serious thing for you." And I was lucky I was able to change it because shortly after that you know they made it possible for people to leave camp. And so I did apply to leave camp and go back to school. So they did approve my leaving. And so I went to school -- my brother and I -- went to a small engineering school in Cleveland, Fenn College. There weren't too many schools that were accepting the Japanese Americans at that time. A lot of the schools that had ROTC wouldn't take Japanese. But we were fortunate that this school did. But when I left camp I was 4C, enemy. But then shortly after I left camp they reclassified us to 1A and so after one year I got called in. So that's when I went into the service. 

When did you leave camp?

I left camp in September of '43.

And a year later you were drafted. 

Yeah, this is in May of '44. 

So did you have a full year's worth of school work?

Fortunately I was able to complete, which was very fortunate because after I got out of the service I went to Stanford and luckily Stanford gave me credit for two full years.

Can you spend just a couple of minutes talking about how it was to go to Cleveland?

I forget who it is but they set up this thing called a student relocation -- I forget what it was called. But it's this a group of people who are helping college students relocate, find a school. And my brother and I were helped by this group, too. It was actually the Quakers who helped us. I think it was a Quaker school. 

Then college was a Quaker school?

It seemed to me it was because they were involved in our going there. They were involved in paying for our way and this kind of thing. For our school expenses, somebody paid for it. So we were fortunate because after being in camp, you don’t have much money. When we went into camp we sold mostly everything for a very small percentage so we didn’t have much money. But we had to go to hostels. The hostel in Cleveland was sort of one block away from college, so we had a place to stay. 

So then I was inducted in May in 1944 and at that time, they were waiting until they had enough Japanese Americans to form a unit and so they put us on active reserve until August. And so I went back to camp to visit my parents. And then I reported for service in August and went to Camp Shelby for basic training.

How did they feel about you going into service? We didn't talk about how they answered the loyalty question. 

And now that you mentioned I'm sorry that I didn't ask my dad because it would be interesting to see what he thought about it. As far as military service is concerned, they were quite accepting. As a matter of fact I think they felt that it's something that I needed to do. And so they never resisted.

Were they proud of you for going?

I've kind of think they were. Although they were you know they knew I was going so  they were pretty apprehensive--

How about you, were you apprehensive? 

No. 

How come? 

Well you know, Japanese people, soldiers believe that when they go off to war they're going to die. Americans don't believe that, Americans believe they're all going to come back.

So you believed that you going to come back? 

Which is probably, which is kind of naive because you know, I could very well have died but you know -- had to have faith, have to have faith in the future. 

So we are well inducted in August and we reported to Camp Shelby, Mississippi. And after 13 weeks of basic training we were shipped overseas to France. We went overseas it was actually in a January we went overseas and it so happened that on my birthday, my 21st birthday we left the United States. This is back in New York, New York Harbor, and as we're going out somebody said, "Hey look there's the Statue of Liberty!" And so we all rushed up to the top and so that was my first and only glimpse of the Statue of Liberty on my 21st birthday. 

We joined the 442nd, you know this is after the Lost Battalion and all of the terrible fighting that went on there. So we were in France in January and we were up in the Alps, at the border between France and Italy. But it's a very quiet sector. I mean there wasn't any action going on there so it was kind of a good time to get oriented. And get to know some of the people there. So we were there until late March. And then we were sent in April and that's where we got to the Gothic Line.

So we were sent there in late March and in early April that's when the campaign started, that's when the fighting started. And so we had landed in Leghorn and then we moved north. And we were on the west side of Italy about halfway up, near Pisa. Because I remember we went to Pisa and I saw the leaning tower there. Then we were fighting northward into the Appenine Mountains and that's when things got kind of sticky. And there was a lot of fighting going on. And that's when I was wounded. April 19th, just last Thursday was my 56th anniversary since I was wounded. 

When you say the fighting got sticky, were you running in the forest with machine guns or were you throwing mortars or what were you doing?

I was in a rifle company so I had an automatic rifle so we were basically moving forward and countering mortar fire and machine guns, that kind of thing.

So now you realize you're talking to somebody who's never been even close to such situations. Is it like the movies -- you're crawling on your belly or hiding between behind trees?

Yeah, it is like that. Did you see Saving Private Ryan?

No I should see it.

For us it wasn't quite that bad because we never made any seaborne landings. But it was similar. But the thing that I always tell people is that the level of noise is what that you can't reproduce in a theater. And the noise is just, it's physical. When you get on the receiving end of artillery shells I mean it's, you know you don't just hear it. You feel it. And had always struck me was the level of noise that you're subjected to. 

Is it enough to hurt your hearing?

Well I had already lost most of my hearing in basic training. The first time you fire or rifle, and I think a lot of G.I.s suffered the same thing, is that when you subject your ears to the loud noises, you lose a lot of your hearing.

Oh so you lost most of your hearing in basic training?

Not most of my hearing but you lose a lot of it. And I didn't realize that at that time but ever since I've had to wear hearing aids. But that's what happened, the first day I went out on the rifle range you come back years and your ears are ringing, and you can't hear anything for days, you know. So I realize now that's what was happening is that all of us are losing our ability to hear sharp. 

After a brief break, Kats describes being part of the campaign that scaled Mount Folgorito in April of 1945, the infamous night climb that three battalions made to take the German troops by surprise, breaking the Gothic Line. 

But we were up there and this is about April 19th. We started to go down, we were basically in this great big fort. We had captured this big fort and we had stayed there for a day and then they told us to go down the mountain side. So we ran down at nighttime, it was about 8 o'clock that night. We got there to a village and they told us when they got there that we're going to stay here for the night. But before we could get to sleep the lieutenant came over and said he wants a patrol, he wants a squad leader and two scouts and a BAR team [Browning Automatic Rifle]. And there were two of us. And so I saw you know when the lieutenant asked for BAR man, I was standing there, unfortunately. And he was looking right at me.

So I went. And he says I what I want you to do is to go over the hill on the other side and see if you find the first platoon, 'cause we were the second platoon. And he didn't know where the first platoon was. And he says, "I have an Italian paeson [partisan] here in this village, and he knows the way so he'll guide you to the other place." And so we set out, and we hadn't gone very far and then this paeson set off a mine. And it turned out it was some type of C-4.

Right in the middle of our patrol and killed two men. So there's five of us, and two of us are wounded, the squad leader and myself. We were wounded. And just one man out of the four was unhurt. So the two fellows who were killed was a fellow named Kiyoshi Murakami, he was from Idaho and a fellow named Stanley Oba from Portland. So they were killed instantly, both of them. And there I was with both legs just smashed and bleeding like crazy. 

The thing though is that I was very lucky because it's a miracle almost because both my legs had been shattered from here down from my knees, and both my legs were broken. And I was bleeding from my artery. And normally in a situation, a person would be dead in minutes, losing so much blood. But miraculously, since we hadn't gone too far the medics came running up. And don't I know how he did it but he stopped the bleeding. So saved my life because we were so far away from. So I still think it's a miracle that you know, God really looking after me -- I mean how else would that blood had stopped flowing? 

So they had to reconstruct your leg. 

Oh yeah. It took me two and half years in the hospital -- it took me a year and a half before I could even walk.

That's a lot of time to be spending in the hospital. So they reconstructed all that they could.

Yeah, they gave me bone grafts, and they went in and put screws in. So I was rehabilitated and was able to get out in November 1947. I was wounded in April 1945. So I was in the hospital all that time and so in November 1947 I was finally discharged. But before I was discharged though, I applied to go to Stanford and they accepted me because at that time things were easier to get into Stanford.

I had seen the movie Honor Bound in which Wendy Hanamura asked the guys in the 442nd if they felt that they were cannon fodder, and they sort of laugh it off and say, "We don't talk about that." I wanted to know what you thought of that question?

Well, I don't think too much about it either but I really don't think in terms of they used us as cannon fodder. Although you could certainly reach that conclusion sometimes but I kind of think it's more a case where the 442nd established the good reputation for being able to achieve its objectives. And so whenever they had a very difficult or dangerous assignment, I kind of think they thought in terms of, "Let's let the 442nd do it because they could probably do it." And this is particularly true in the case of the rescue of the Lost Battalion which was a really, really difficult and dangerous task. But I think they had confidence that the 442nd could probably accomplish it. 

Would you be willing to describe the situation that the Lost Battalion found themselves in? I know they were a Texas Battalion.

What they what they had done was they were fighting near the same area as the 442nd. And what happened with this one company I think it was, they sort of overextended themselves and as they were advancing, the battalion found themselves so far ahead of everybody else. And by the time they realized it, the Germans had just closed in behind them and cut them off. So they were isolated all by themselves and they tried to get supplies to them by air, but apparently they were not able to because they were sending were supplies to them but the supplies were always falling out in areas where they couldn't reach it.

But any rate things were getting desperate for them and they were down to about 200 men or something like that. And so the General of the 36th division -- and the 442nd was attached to 36th at that time -- decided that he's going to use 442nd to see if they could rescue these guys, and that's what he did. So General Dahlquist who is not really one of the favorites [laughs]. And they did manage to rescue but as I was saying earlier they rescued I think about 150, 200 men but they lost 800 in the process. So not very good odds. 

That's outrageous.

It's outrageous. But when you start these kind of campaigns, you don't do so with the idea of losing that many men. I don't think anybody really says that, "Well if I lose up to so many men, then I'm going to just quit." No. 

And then on the other hand to leave the Texas Battalion there to just be killed is not militarily what you do either, right?

That's right. But I guess they could have surrendered, I guess, but they didn't want to do that.

Would the chances have been pretty good that they would have all survived if they surrendered?

Gee, I don't know. Probably, they would have become prisoners of war.

Now some people say that the 442nd gave the Japanese Americans as a whole a good name -- that it really helped the image of the Japanese Americans. Do you think so?

I think so. I kind of think it helped. People argue though that it didn't have to be that way, it shouldn't have had to be that way. But I feel that it was. And I kind of think that the record of the 442nd second did help acceptance of the Japanese Americans. So yeah I guess my answer would be, yes, I think it did help. 

I guess I could ask you just personally -- you shouldn't have to speak for the thousands of Japanese Americans, but do you think it has helped you in relationships with Caucasians? Did it help right after the war? Does it help now? 

I think so, I do. And it's helped me personally, like I said and it has helped my sense of self-worth, let's put it that way. 

That you fought for your country?

Just the fact that having gone through a very difficult experience and you know, being able to cope with it, I guess. Although your sense of self-worth doesn't necessarily come from what you do, it should come from what you, really. But basically having accomplished some significant things I think for me anyway is a large part, a significant part of my feeling of self-worth. So from that standpoint I think it helped me to have gone through that.

How about faith? You know you spoke about God before and feeling that he saved you.

He saved my life or something. And I hope I have used my life in a way that kind of justifies why he saved me. Because I believe a person is put on this earth for a certain purpose. And it's up to you to make the best of your opportunities -- not just for yourself. And I believe that as a Christian that we're given certain gifts and certain opportunities and it's up to us to make the best of it.

So I do think about that more and more now, you know like, boy it really was a miracle and it's been 56 years since my injury. And there must have been some reason for why I was given those extra fifty six years right? I mean there must be some reason so I try to think about, am I really contributing as much to this as I can? [laughs]

We can come back to this topic again. But going back to the fact that you went to Stanford and you studied engineering again?

Actually I started out in physics. Because my counselor felt that because of my injuries, maybe I could get an engineering job. Actually I got my Bachelor's degree in physics but then I decided to go back and get a Master's degree in engineering. 

And then you went on to an engineering career?

Yeah, I got my Master's in 1951. Well right I got my bachelor's degree, I got a summer job at the Bureau of Standards in Washington D.C. so I spent the summer back there. That was kind of fun. But then I came back and got my Masters in engineering and so I went to work for Moffett Field. It was called the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics at that time, NACA. When they were doing research on airplanes and missiles and that kind of thing, and rockets and stuff. So I thought that'd be kind of exciting so I went to work for them. 

And then in 1956 that's when nuclear energy was becoming kind of significant and I felt that was a good area to make a contribution in because energy is very important. So I applied for work at General Electric and they gave me a job. And I went to work for them, and then I actually worked for them for 28 years. But I retired in 1985 from GE but then I decided well, I was 62 at the time so I decided well, gee whiz. It's kind of too early to be quitting work. So that's when I went to work for Lockheed. So I worked for them for seven years. I enjoyed that. 

Well a lot of people talk about the resettlement years as being more much more difficult than the camp years. You weren't incarcerated any longer, true, but just building up from nothing for a lot of people. For you, you were in the hospital. 

So I missed all that, you could say fortunately I missed all that but on the other hand I was in the hospital.

Yeah. You were in great pain and under medication and surgeries. I mean I don't think anybody would have wanted to trade places with you -- but your family. 

Oh yeah the family had kind of a hard time. And my brother was with them. But then they all had to go into military service because the Korean War was on. But I think they came back in '45 and then they started farming here in San Jose and that was kind of starting  from nothing, starting from scratch. It was kind of a difficult experience. So most of the families, for a year or two anyway, they really had a great deal of hardship. Kind of scraping, from hand to mouth. But they did manage, fortunately there were jobs in agriculture at that time here in San Jose. 

I heard it was very very difficult, people were living in barns. 

I think for about the first year I think people were living in garages.

How about your family?

Well, they were living in these farm shacks. I mean like laborers today, not exactly very comfortable places to live. But they managed and time goes by and gradually times got better. And with each move I think things got better because when they moved to San Jose when they first started growing strawberries, things got a lot better for them. Although I still remember that little house that they were living in. Gosh, it was a little tiny little house.

Was it worse or better than the barracks at camp? 

About the same [laughs] I would say. But I forget how long they were there, it must have been a couple of years. They were working for a man named Rosotto. I think there they were sharecropping with strawberries and then they decided that they had saved enough money to be able to buy a place. So they had come a long way. So they bought a place in Stevens Creek Road. So they bought about three or four acres there and that was a good thing. And so they grew strawberries there for maybe four or five years.

And by that time, things started to develop too much. So it became difficult to farm there because you know subdivisions had gone in and it become pretty industrialized so they sold it, and they bought a place on Berryessa Road in East San Jose. And they bought a walnut orchard there. And my brother, Shogo, was with him. He was working with my father, so two of them were pretty much running the farm. 

What do you think sustained your family all these years? Through the hardships of camp, the backbreaking labor before and after.

Well I kind of think it's what sustains most families I guess -- being able to make a good living, having family, educating the family, watching the kids grow up and I think all those things were what made life for them meaningful. And being able to enjoy a lot of the things in life because by time they were able to retire, they had resources and things so that they could travel a little bit. So I think after the war, like turned pretty good for them, after the initial couple of years of hardship. 

When I listen to you talk, you're so positive. If you could give a message to young people now about camp and about enduring hardships. If you could give them a message about overcoming obstacles or preventing some of the problems that preceded the mass internment. If you have comments about those I'd like to hear it. 

Well I guess you always maintain a kind of a positive attitude. And I always go back to St. Thomas Aquinas: You have to know those things that you could change and those things you can't change, and have the wisdom to know the difference. Because if there's something you could do, it's wrong to not try to correct it. I try to go by that but sometimes I lean too far in the direction of shikata ga nai, can't do anything about it. And I don't do something about it.

But I kind of think that there are a lot of things that are wrong, that we should try to do something within our limited capability. I would suggest to the young people that they try to make their lives worthwhile. I guess, to remember that you're on this earth only once and you have only one chance to make a contribution. The way I believe it is we're human beings and as a Christian, I believe that God created us to do something. And I think the ultimate in our lives is to be able to know to do what you were created to do and to know that you have done it. To me that will be the ultimate. That's kind of philosophical and general and probably not too helpful to anybody. But anyway I kind of think that we have to find ourselves first. Know who we are, and try to be that person.

Interview conducted by Grace Megumi Fleming. JAMsj thanks Grace for allowing the museum to archive and share these oral histories