Bill Nishimura

At the time of this interview in 2002, Bill Nishimura was 82 years old, as feisty and animated as you imagine he might have been at the time of the war. Bill grew up in Los Angeles in a working class farming family during the Depression years. His parents worked tirelessly doing grueling farmwork, growing several kinds of produce and adjusting their crops to the land they were able to lease or work on. When the war broke out, the Nishimuras were immediately thrust into the chaos of that moment: His father was taken away to Santa Fe, New Mexico to the Department of Justice camp there, while the rest of the Nishimuras were sent to Poston. In Poston, Bill was coming of age -- and of independent thought. On the loyalty questionnaire, Bill answered yes/no, writing on the paper, “If you restore my constitutional rights, I will serve in the army.” As expected, they pegged Bill as a resistor, and he was sent to Tule Lake while his mother and sister stayed behind in Poston.

It would be years -- over 60 years to be exact -- for Bill to willingly discuss his experience in the camp. But a pilgrimage to Santa Fe would help open up his memory and perceptions of this pivotal time. “It was really a learning thing. In a way I appreciate this experience.”

Today November 8th 2002 and we are with Bill Nishimura at his daughter's house, Donna Nishimura's house, here in Torrance. 

Well I was born on June 21, 1920 in Compton, California. I went to Japan when I was five and a half years old to visit my paternal grandparents or rather grandfather who was gravely ill at that time. When I made the trip there [it was] my mother, and my sister, and my younger brother. So there were four of us that traveled at that time and we disembarked at Yokohama. And by the way the name of the ship was Tenyo Maru and being the Kansai (Tokyo area) [it was after] the Great Earthquake. So I saw many of the fallen buildings at that time. And then, we travel on train to Iwakuni and my mother lived in Imazu which is right now, it's all in the Iwakuni city. And my dad was in Misho, which is a country village. To go to my dad's home, we had to cross the famous Kintai Bridge and travel through the mountainous area and into the village. My sister lived with my paternal parents and then my mother and my brother and I lived in Imazu, my maternal parents.

So while you were visiting you stayed in different places? 

We were separated. Right. So my sister went to school in Misho. 

How long was the visit?

About a year and a half.

And the reason for staying that long was we all came down with some kind of illness and it took us almost a year and a half to really get back to health again.

And was it a flu you think?

No, I had pneumonia. My mother had a pleurisy and my sister also had pneumonia. And then my brother, in Japan in those days they shaved the head. And then the razor nick caused the blood poisoning and he passed on at that time. My smaller brother. That razor nick caused the blood poisoning and he died. So actually the trip was very sad because my grandfather passed on, too at that time. And then we returned about a year and a half to San Francisco. And I remember the entrance of that bay. I heard a loud whistle and that meant that we were too close to the shore. So that was the warning whistle. I remember that.

And then on the train we came back to Los Angeles and then to Compton.

I see. So by then you were seven years old. 

About, not quite not quite seven but in that area. And then before I was born my dad farmed in the Palos Verdes Hills. And this was the dry farming - dry farming means that they all depended on the rain only, no sprinkler system or anything else, just rain. And then at that time my sister was born and according to my dad he said there was coyotes all kinds of animals at that time over there, just rustling whatever they grew. And then after that they moved to Compton. From Compton, we moved to El Segundo which was the farm on the south side of the international airport. And we raised strawberry at that time. And then after a couple of, well before going in that area I would like to say that I attended the grammar school called Weisburn. And El Segundo was known for anti-Japanese at that time. So we could have gone to El Segundo grammar school but we chose Weisburn. 

Now when you say anti-Japanese, what does that mean? Does that mean people called you names or did they--

They didn't let us in. So actually driving through, doesn't matter. But you are never able to walk over there. I don't know whether someone was attacked or not, I don't know. But they were really anti. So actually El Segundo was was built around the Standard Oil company. So all the employees all resided in El Segundo.

Did the company itself have an anti-Japanese attitude?

I don't know how it was but they didn't like Japanese. Yes. Perhaps they may--I don't know where that root comes from. I really don't know. Perhaps, you know, Klansmen were involved in this as an employee of Standard Oil. I don't know really. That's only my guess.

But Weisburn was really nice because there were so many farmers' children [who] were all going to Weissberg and there were quite a few at that time. But the teachers were all nice. Of course El Segundo did not have any bus system but Weisburn school district had the bus system. So we walked approximately about a mile to the place to the bus stop. And then we rode on the bus to the school. 

Was there a large Japanese population where you were living?

Oh yes quite a bit of Japanese families there. Well, on my side of the area, I would say perhaps pretty close to about 25 families. Our side was called the West Hawthorne area and then the East Hawthorne was another area. The East Hawthorne had quite a bit more Japanese families. But I'll get to that later. 

And then after a couple of years, we moved to Lawndale. And there Dad started another type of farming that's growing cabbage, lettuce, cauliflowers, green onions and many other vegetables. Carrots and spinach of that nature. And even grew string beans. That that was in 1929 I believe we moved to Lawndale. And then as you know, we were in a depth of Depression. Oh it was bad.

The area we farmed was called Kuroda Ranch. Mr. Kuroda subleased the land from Mr. Barger, an Englishman who is a famous sweetpea seed grower. And during the Depression time, we used to have a difficult time making our payments on the land. So Mr. Barger told us that we could grow sweet peas and we could harvest the seed and give the seed in place of the rental. He was very nice in that way. He helped us out. And so when we grew sweet peas, it was one whole mass of beautiful flowers, all colors. And many of the people who knew of this area would come and just drive along and get the scent of the sweet pea. It was tremendous. It was one showplace, yes. And we used to sell sweet peas on the roadside, too [laughs].

 And then going back to school I transferred to Lawndale Central School and I graduated eighth grade and then entered Leuzinger High School. I graduated from high school in 1939 and then after graduation of course my dad wasn't able to send me to college. So I worked at the farm. But during high school and grammar schooltime, after school we all went to a Japanese school. For two and a half hour to three hours every day and then on Saturday we had a day off. On that day off it was our free time. We seldom went out playing, of course I can say that we had our time to play. But after graduating from high school I just continued going to Japanese school.

At the Kuroda Ranch, there were approximately about 15 families farming in that area and we did practically everything as a community, like picnics and many things that we had. And then the most pleasant time we used to have was the weiner bake we used to have at the Carillo Beach in San Pedro area. And what we did was the farmers had their trucks so we loaded the truck with firewood and then we would all jump on the back of that truck and singing these Japanese songs that we learn from their record. And we would just sing along and get to the destination and then we would have a big bonfire and have a weiner bake. And that was really one of the best moments we had during that era.

This was a very close knit.

 Yes. And what we did we had a weiner bake there and the Los Angeles harbor has a mile and a half breakwater and there is a lighthouse at the end of it. After we finish our eating hot dogs, we would walk on that breakwater to the lighthouse and come back. That means about a three mile walk and then after that we'll become hungry again. So we start another fire and have another weiner bake. And that was really a pleasant time we had together. Over in this Kurada Ranch area we were more Japanese. Things were more Japanese related than other communities, I feel. So our parents were really strict that we never dance. You know, ballroom type dance. We never we were not able to do that.

Did they think it was evil?

Well they didn't want to get us in trouble. 

With the opposite sex?

Right. That was the main reason, I think. Really, it's sort of a funny thing that to think right now, my we were living in such an ancient age at that time. So I learned dancing when I entered the relocation center. That's the first time I learned to dance [laughs]. But that was a truth. We were raised that way. So I can't deny that I had -- like Emperor of Japan, we saluted. And which was, I don't think it was bad because I know we weren't at war, see. But the parents felt that the children must have respect for his country.

So we were taught in that mad fashion. However Mr. Sei Fujii, the publisher of a Japan California Daily News which later became California Daily News or in Japanese, Kashu Mainichi. My dad was a good school mate in Japan where Mr. Fujii was living in the next village, and they went to the same high school. And when he started the newspaper, my dad really went all out to help him out. Not financially but to do other things, volunteered for him. To spread the news that he is starting a newspaper so to have subscription.

And Mr. Fujii I still remember, before the war started he used to always commented and decide having newspaper. He had the radio program to agree it was about a one hour hour and a half while radio program every Thursday night I believe it was. And he used to always tell us that the Japan and the United States will never fight each other because at the end, both sides will be losing. No gain and having more. So do not worry, he says, that Japan will never fight against the U.S.

Did he say that in Japanese? 

Yes. 

Do you remember how he said it in Japanese?

Nichibei senso wa keshite okoranai. (War between Japan and America will absolutely not occur). Now talking about Mr. Fujii, he told us Niseis, that "Your parents are Japan-born and Japanese. And they cannot be an American citizen, like the European immigrants. We are prohibited from being naturalized, so naturally the parents have no place to go but to respect Japan. And you Niseis are American born and American citizen. Therefore, no matter that your parents are Japanese but you're an American. So you must obey the American Constitution and be a good American citizen. He always stressed that point. 

So when I went to Santa Fe he was there and I met and as soon as I got there I asked him about this, saying that Japan will absolutely not fight with the U.S. Now what was the thinking, why did you say that when you didn't know anything about it? And he replied, "Bill I'll tell ya." Says, "Many Japanese farmers and other people would ask me, would there be a war between Japan and the United States? So I said like I had printed in the paper that they will not fight against each other. I said that because if I said there would be a war between them or maybe a conflict would erupt between these two countries, what would all the Japanese people do? They'll start doing, making a foolish move perhaps going to Japan or doing something that's really foolish due to this excitement. That's why I said that to calm their nerves and have their cool. I know fortune tellers. I don't know what was going to happen but that was the best thing I thought [it] would be." So I thought to myself, what a brilliant person he is. And many farmers like in the English language, they all came to Mr. Fujii or the Gardena Japanese Association were there were bilingual person to explain things what was written in English and in Japanese also. Because they hardly had any education in Japan. They came as a young person to the United States. So in that way Mr. Fujii was really helpful person and he would listen to these farmers, you know, what they have to say.

Well that makes sense. Somebody else told me about that in the Bay Area. It's hard to imagine now because we have telephones and faxes and e-mail but you physically went to visit people if you wanted information.

Now talking about the WPA camp. The Army took that camp right after the war started. And then they started the first group that I know was a communication group that strung a wire from the camp all the way through the private road we had and wired those to our electricity pole and they were sort of having training in communication at the Kurada Ranch.

 So they took soldiers to this camp? Training them?

Yes, regular army, in communication. And I used to give them ride through the town, of that nature. And they were really nice people. They didn't, you know, stare at us or said anything bad about us. They were really friendly. 

Well you were doing them a favor.

Yes. [laughs] Even though, they were at war, we were at war with Japan.

Well you are American citizens just like them. 

Yes but I don't know if they realized that or not maybe because of the facial and physical--

That was the reason for that WPA center. Yes. After about a week or so later, all of a sudden around nine or ten o'clock the anti aircraft guns start to shoot off about a mile, maybe two or three miles away. The anti aircraft gun all just shot off and the searchlight, criss crossing the sky. And here the formation of the aircraft, was shone with the searchlight and they were shooting at that. And then we thought, the Japanese airplane couldn't come this far. And then later on I think it was the army or I don't know what department, they announced that that was done to -- what do you call it? Intensify the people's feeling? Like Japanese say "kinsho suroi." 

Just to stress everybody out? 

That's right. You know, to let them know that we're at war so we have to be on guard. That was the idea. 

So these anti-aircraft guns were real. But the airplanes above were -- 

So high that it will not reach. So they were sort of simulating a war condition. To keep us alert. 

And maybe even misleading some people into thinking that Japan might attack.

Right, that's another way of thinking, too. But that was the idea. Oh that was furious. We watched from our windows and of course in those days it was all blackout. And the headlights of the car, the top portion was all black we had to put a black mask on the top of the headlights, so that just the bottom portion showed. And no cigarette smoking outside. No light period. That was it.

That's interesting, okay. Even that could be a signal. I heard about the blackout but I didn't know about covering the top part.. But you were allowed to drive at night?

Yes they were driving that night. But probably, they would question you at some point that you have to prove that you were on a business or something like that. No joy rides or anything of that nature. So living in those days it was miserable. We had to do everything in the darkness. 

So you said that your mother was worried about everything.

Yes. Oh yes. My mother took the shrine out, the Shinto shrine, and put salt on there and we burned it up. And many of the records which had the sort of militaristic song? We all burned those. Which later people said we didn't have to do that. That was unnecessary.

I know people who burnt kimono. It has nothing military about it but just because it was Japanese. 

And of course the Chinese had a button says "I'm a Chinese." 

Were you scared?

Yes I was. I was really scared. I really didn't know what was going to happen to us. And then especially when the evacuation came out. And then before the Gardena area move, there was a period called voluntary evacuation, which I do not like that wording. I think that was a misnomer. There was nothing voluntary about this. We had to move. And in that period, government gave us a week or so of free movement time that we could travel any place where we wish.

So through my sister's marriage I had a relative in central California, that's Visalia. But the farm was in Ivanhoe which is about twelve miles inland. And we were told that the 99 East may not need to evacuate. So we took a chance and moved to this B area. West of 99, was A area. Then a couple of months after I got there, the government came out with a statement that all California will be evacuated. So I worked until the evacuation time which was August the 7th. We left Visalia to Poston, Arizona.

You didn't go to an assembly center? 

No I did not. If I had not made that move to Visalia, I would have been in Santa Anita Assembly Center. And in Tulare, there was an assembly center. When I was working at this farm, they used to take these cull tomatoes to this assembly center for the internees to consume. 

So cull meaning -- 

Well it's not the top grade tomato which is not good enough to be sent to market. Which just taking out the bad part is, really that's a good tomato. And during that time, government issued so many things that we were not able to take any this and that, and all these information came through JACL. And the farmers didn't know what to do. We have to evacuate, however the government will not tell us when we are being evacuated. So the tomato crops were probably about a month or two to be harvested but if they did not sell their crop at that time they will lose the whole thing. They will be going without anything. I remember these bargain hunters come along and then, well of course, all these small farmers they all sold their crops. And then what they did was work like they used to work in being hired by the new owner. And they finished picking and pulled out all the stakes, bundled them up, and then we evacuate. So there was plenty of time there. They knew the day of the evacuation but they wouldn't tell us. You know how dirty they were? 

The government knew. 

Yes. And JACL knew that date, too. They knew that date. Have you read through the Lim Report? There are many things that the JACL did which was not right I see. See they cooperated with the government. 

That is really dirty. 

Oh, it was really dirty. Yes it was really dirty. And I heard through this Lim's report, says a few members of our government paid.

Have you ever been a JACL member?

I haven't. But now I would like to join. I would like to join. Yes. For all the beautiful things that they're doing now. They understand what went on and understood us, what we had to go through. And I'm really happy that they are -- not all -- but most of them are for us. The path that I took, you know, going against the government all the way. I did not say yes to anything that the government had asked me. I went "no" all the way through. And saying that "no" wasn't easy either because back of my mind, I had the feeling like, what's going to happen to me? I always had that sort of fear like concern. And yet, I did not like the way they treated me. Oh, that really blew me up. I just didn't like the way they treated me so I went all out and went against them to the very bitter end. But when the war ended, when I was in Santa Fe, the government made a statement that, "We are not deporting you to Japan." However if you wish to go you may do so but if you wish to stay here, we'll gladly accept you. That statement gave me -- I felt, "Oh gee, Uncle Sam still has a warmth in his heart." And my feeling toward U.S. changed 180 degrees. I was so happy. I thought I was sure to be deported. And really there was nothing to look forward to going back then. 

Well and Japan wasn't home for you.

And I was so happy. And from then on, I started to respect the country. That was the turning point. Oh that statement was really beautiful. And I will get to the interment part later. See during my time of incarceration I was in Poston, Tule Lake, Santa Fe and then Crystal City. So I've been to three WRA camp and then one justice [department] camp. See, Santa Fe and Crystal City was under the Justice Department.

When I entered Poston, it was August, so it was hot, and once it went up to pretty close to 115, too. However, that area is dry heat. So you know, it was bearable but it was hot. When I took a step into the soil [laughs], oh I sunk about six inches. It was powdery soil there because they bulldozed all the mystique trees out of there to make the camp. So the ground was all loose and it was powdery. So whenever a wind whips up, oh my gosh, you just can't see anything. And it was dusty on the first year. But from the second year, we started to plant trees and lawns and thing and we watered a lot so it wasn't as bad. However it was dusty. And then barrack-wise, Poston was the worst barrack that I have resided. Really.

Oh the knot holes, and where the woods are put together there is a gap there. And dust would just  blow in from that. It was bad. And the floor had no flooring. So later on government issued us the linoleum which we had to install and that made it much better. And then we had no closet or tables or anything so we had to go to the woodpile and get whatever we can scavenge from that wood and make our sort of furniture, if you would call it a furniture. And we used many of the orange boxes and those crates for tables and chairs. And the bedding was a straw mattress. We had to fill the mattress with straws and then the government issued us a cot, army cot. So Poston was really bad, to my experience. And then of course they had the double roofing because of the heat.

And then Tule Lake, oh it was luxury to me. Oh it had the plasterboard siding. All plastic over siding and the ceiling. Well when I entered there I thought oh my gosh, this is luxury. And then we had one big stove in the center, a coal burning stove, and then because of the coal the gas would form in the stove and once in a while it'd go, "BOOM." [laughs] When I entered Tule Lake, the first thing I noticed was the sky, the smoke that's all, oh my gosh it was so dark there. In Poston it was clear, all clean sky. But Tule Lake was so dirty. 

And that's because?

 Of the smoke, the coal burning. 

And Poston was wood burning?

Poston was diesel oil. Yes.

So it was much better in Poston as far as the stove, heating system. And then when I went into Santa Fe, Santa Fe did not have the wall. Although they had three stoves in a barrack and no partitions in the barrack because of all the male people so we did not have any partitions. And then going to Crystal City, oh that was it. It was a family reunion. So we had cooking stove, sink and well of course bathroom was, we had to go outside.

They also had a one huge mess hall because there were so many single people there, too. And although it's called The Family Reunion camp I don't know why they had single people in there. But anyway since I heard single people were there so they had the mess hall. [It was called Family Reunion Camp] because fathers who were interned at Santa Fe or Bismark or wherever, who had a family and were not privileged to be paroled, were sent to Crystal City and the family joined them there. 

So my dad was in Santa Fe, and I always thought that perhaps I may be able to go to Crystal City from Poston and join and be together with my dad in Crystal City. However my age, the draft age, so they didn't want that draft age people in there. 

When I was in Poston, that questionnaire came out, 27 and 28. The loyalty question. And I answered "no" on the 27 and on 28 I left it blank and made a notation there: If my constitutional citizens right be restored, I would gladly put yes. And as "no" and "blank" I was not sent to Tule Lake right at the time where people outright said no/no to both questions. I was not in that group. So the government thought I did not answer question 28 because my dad was in Santa Fe and they thought that I had the bad feeling toward the government because of that. So they sent my dad back to Poston and joined me. And then right after that they called me to that administration building and asked me, "Bill what is your answer on 28?" I said well, are you going to give me my citizenship rights back? No we can't do that, they said. Then my answer would be no. And then when I said oh about a week or so later, shipped to Tule Lake.

Was that just you or the whole family?

Well my dad came with me but my mother stayed. Well coming back to the evacuation time again, my sister stayed at my home when I left for Visalia at that free movement. And then when the evacuation notice came for the area along our area, my sister went to Santa Anita. And then when Santa Anita closed down, she requested for a transfer to Poston to join us. And so my mother stayed with my sister.

And then Dad and I went to Tule Lake. I would like to mention my feelings on the Tule Lake segregation center. They say segregation center. So when you hear the "segregation" one would feel that it's black and white. This site is loyal and this side is disloyal. So actually segregation center means Tule Lake was disloyal camp but actually it was not so because when the government asked the internees when they want to vacate that for the no/no groups to get in, the disloyals to come in, they asked the people to go elsewhere in other camps or outside wherever they wish to go.  And the people who felt it would be better for them to move, moved out. But the people who didn't care stayed there. But they were still loyal to the country. You know what I mean now? So therefore that camp was not a segregation center, it was mixed. And then another group is the one who requested for repatriation to Japan. They were in that group, too. However to repatriate doesn't mean they're disloyal. The reason that most of the people wanted to repatriate was because Isseis never had a chance to become United States citizens like the European immigrants. They were discriminated, so they were in together with the disloyals and the loyals. So government made a big mistake doing so. They should have got all the people, you know, loyal people out of there. That caused all the problem at Tule Lake. 

Oh you think so?

Yes because their thinking is different. I wouldn't say all but the most of the problems. And well the Hoshidan. Maybe, hoshi means to volunteer for things, so that means a volunteering group. And at the beginning I think they used that name Sokoku Hoshidan. And sokuku means Japan. And then later on they eliminated that sokoku. 

Koku means country and so means --

Means parental country. That meant to the Isseis, not me because I was a Nisei. And by the way I had dual citizenship. And that's a common thing with the Japanese family in the early days. When I was born they automatically put me into the Japanese koseki.

Yeah I remember I talked to one woman who whose father had to take her to court to purposefully make sure she wasn't dual citizen. It took extra effort to throw away the Japanese citizenship because I like you said, you automatically--

Well of course, some family didn't do that, take that process but my family, they did. So I had dual citizenship. And then when I became 18, the draft age, I had to make a regular report to Japan that I'm in America so I won't be able to be drafted in the army. In those days the association stressing that we should renounce our Japanese citizenship. Many people hung on to those dual citizenship. But I decided to renounce my Japanese citizenship. So I only had American citizenship after that. 

And then at Tule Lake, the Hoshidan group was formed and my block, I think it was a Hidekazu Tamura, he was one of the head person of the group. He asked me if I wanted to join the organization. And I asked what type of activities are you planning to do? And he says, well we're going to have speech, you know oratorical contest and like waking up in the morning at five o'clock and running around the camp, rain, shine, snow whatever, we always got up at 5:00 and ran around for one hour.

 And then after that is finished we go have a breakfast. Anyway such was the explanation to me by Mr. Tamura. And the oratorial group was called Benronbu. 

I know that we talked before the video was on about the Japanese school in Poston. Can you say that as the tape is running that you thought it was set up by the government?

Yes. When I entered a Poston, not too long after that a Japanese school opened in Camp Three and I was sort of startled because all the Japanese instructors were pulled in by FBI when the war started and now they're starting a Japanese school here. I couldn't understand the reason. However I thought I'll gain my knowledge by going, so I decide to enter the class. And when I entered they gave me a text which was published at Harvard University having many of the important people of Japan like Togo,  Gensui, Nugitaisho then Natsumiso seki who is a good writer. And many other important persons writing. And then they had an article on Japanese-Russian war and Sino-Chinese incident. And many of that type of lesson was included in those books. And the calligraphy, also. They even had kanbun in that textbook. 

And then after about three or four weeks probably, they all of a sudden, the class didn't operate -- the teacher didn't show up and nothing else. So after that well I didn't know anything about it. And then a week or so later, army called me. One of their officers called me and brought out a newspaper and says, "Can you read this?" And I read it to him and he said, "Do you want to volunteer for the language school? I said, "No way. I'm not going to do anything of that nature." Said I'm not going to volunteer for the army anyway. That was before this 27, 28 came up. And so I've figured it out that army had set up that school just to find out how much we knew about the Japanese language. 

And then talking about the guard towers and barbed wires and sentries in Poston, oh my gosh. Nobody would just think of having seen that type of thing in the relocation center. We had nothing of that nature. We only had one MP at Camp One entrance. That was it. At least at Camp Three I did not see any barbed wires, guard towers or anything of that nature. And we used to go to the river wherever we wish. However it's all desert so I don't know how far we can go. But that was a condition. So I felt, oh we're the most trusted internees I thought.

One who never travel other than Poston would not think about the guard outside. But when I went to Tule Lake all my gosh, everything was just different. All barbed wire and chain link fence and the guard towers and a guard with the rifle. And then, talking about the guarding [when I] went to Santa Fe, I heard that at the beginning there was a barbed wire fence and then on top there's an angled wire. So that when it's inward, that means that the internees cannot go out. But when it's turned the other way the outsider can come in. And it was inward before but later on they made it to out because of people might come in and attack the internees. See they had the fear of that. 

Really.

That's what I heard. Yes. And I don't know when they switched that over but at Santa Fe such was the case. And it was controlled under the Justice Department so it was under Border Patrol and it wasn't under the army. See there was a difference there. And the guard people who was in the tower, they were not border patrols. They were sort of cowboy-like people, you know wearing the regular hat, cowboy hat outfits. And at that time I felt, who are they? [laughs] Just a plain cowboys up there I thought.

And then when I went to this Santa Fe marker dedication, this one person talked about all this. And he said, "My dad was the guard over there." And he said he was an artist, his dad. So he had many pictures that he drew while up there and he has notebooks and he had many pictures there and he showed it to us and he said that his guard was not a border patrol or anything -- just a plain person. As a civilian. And he wanted the job so he got it. And that was the type of guard we had. Of course there was border patrols outside the gate. There was a Border Patrol quarter outside the area and they used to ride on horses and go around the camp patrolling. And then funny thing happened at that marker dedication, after that event was over, one fellow came over to me and said, "I was a small kid at that time when you were in there. And I used to throw a cactus at you and I'm sorry, I did." I thought that was so great. When I heard that I thought, "Oh how beautiful people can be."

There were three nurses at Santa Fe and the doctor was one Navy doctor and a couple of Japanese doctor. One's Doctor Benjamin Tanaka. And then the other one was a doctor Furugoichi. I worked as an orderly under Dr. Tanaka. And one thing I really disliked working as an orderly there was it was mandatory that we spend one day in the tuberculosis ward and that really used to get us. And whenever that day comes along we ask the other orderlies to have the doors open and so we just hold our breath and run in there and get the urinal and come out, and dump it, wash it, clean it up [laughs] And then send it back and just run back out. That was the condition we were in.

Is that once a month? 

No one day a week. That was the only thing that really, I didn't like at all. Other things well sure you have to change this bedridden patients, clean them up and everything. But that was nothing. And there was one internee from Alaska, he was quite an old person and he used to ask for morphine every night 'cause he said he can't go to sleep. So we used to give him the morphine and it was so often that doctor said, "Oh he's going to be addicted to that." So he said, "Light up the Bunsen burner and you get a teaspoon and fill that up with water and boil it." And then we put it in the syringe and then-- and you know what happens? It's all mental. He just goes snoring away. [laughs] Oh that was really fun. And then one time there was a flu epidemic and doctor said he wouldn't be able to handle so many people coming in for a flu. So he said, "You guys all do it." And he gave us a penicillin shot, was the best shot. And the penicillin, the needle is so long. And doctor showed that this is a way to inject that needle. And you know what happened? The first patient I tried I bent that needle. Oh my gosh he yelled out and I could still hear that. Oh my gosh I felt so bad about that. Later I learned how to do that. And all went well after that. But that first try, oh my gosh, that was terrifying.

And my dad was hospitalized due to a stomach ulcer and then later on doctor found out it was a cancer. So Doctor said, "Since your dad's going you come along with me." So they didn't have the X-ray machine at the center. So we had to travel to Santa Fe hospital to have his X-rays. So I was able to go out on a couple of times, three times for that purpose. It was a treat to me. And then my father was a believer in this, they call it Christian Science here, but this book was published by Mr. Taniguchi. And he talked about the science about human. He said all the sickness you have is created by yourself by being worrying and overworking and many such thing would cause your sickness. So if you keep yourself happy and do exercise the proper way, you would not have this problem. He used to read that over and over, he was a real believer in that. And I felt his stomach and it was like a rock. Just one area, it was solid. And doctor said I'm sorry to say this but your dad's going to be the next one to go. And I believed that -- it was hard as a rock. And you know what happened? That gradually soften up. And he was able to be discharged. And doctor was really amazed. He was really amazed at the outcome. 

Well what happened to the cancer?

That see, like Mr. Taniguchi said, that whatever you do with it, you're the one who's causing all the sickness. And I don't know if that was a cause and I think the doctor had a good portion of that too, you know giving him the medicine and taking good care of him. Anyway, my dad just used to always, "Hogataka," you know, happy feelings. 

So when he actually passed away, did he die of stomach cancer or something else?

Well he actually died of cancer but 14 years after. So I give a big credit to Dr. Tanaka, oh he took good care of him. Yes. But I don't know what, but I feel that Mr. Taniguchi's writing had a lot to do. However doctor too, had a great deal in my dad's case. He was amazed, really. And actually living 14 years after. That was really something. Yes. 

So you were in Santa Fe much longer than that at Tule Lake?

Yes I was. Because I entered Tule Lake in 1944, January I believe it was. And then I left there when I went to Santa Fe in January of '45. And then I left Santa Fe in 1946, April 18th. And then I left, I got out of Crystal City, June of 1947. 

Oh my gosh. You were there so long.

All that time. And two years after that [laughs]. Yes, I stayed in camp quite a while. 

You were so dangerous, huh? 

Well I said a lot. I really said -- and I heard that that in Washington D.C. They have what I said. When I got out of Crystal City I had to have a sponsor. I wasn't completely free. I had to have a sponsor. So I asked this relative, where I worked in Visalia, I asked him to be my sponsor and he accepted it. And then when I left the camp, we had a few hours stay at Los Angeles. So I wrote to my friends that I'll be there. So they said they'll be waiting for me. And they took me around to my home, the farmhouse and all. And it was really nice.

Then they said after you get back to Visalia, they said you won't be coming back here for so many years now. So might as well stay tonight and you know, just look around some more, we'll you around some more. So I decide to stay with them and the following Sunday I decide to return to Visalia. And when I got back there on Sunday, Mr. Wota is the sponsors' name told me since you weren't there when the FBI was waiting for me at the station at the Porterville says, just my luggage you there I wasn't there. [laughs] So the FBI told you him, "If he doesn't come back by Sunday evening, he said we're going to have to put him back in the camp again." Oh my gosh. That some experience. 

 After a break, Bill transitions back to memories of Poston

And of course going to Colorado River across the river is the California side. You see California there. And once we saw, I don't know whether it was Army or Navy, they were practicing a bombing on the other side on the California side and one plane just plunged through the earth, crashed. We saw that.

And then oh yes, these housewives were in there with these farmers, they said, "This is a great, the camp life. We don't have to cook. And the children, they get their snacks during the morning hour and then afternoon. We never did have that type of thing -- you know they were farming. And they said we all have to do is going to the mess hall, eat, wash yourself and go to bed. And next morning we do whatever we want to do like crafts, learning or whatever. And this is really a good vacation, what they felt. So it all depends on that certain person how they take this evacuation.

Of course it was a bitter thing when we had to move out of California. But once we got into the camp, many felt that it was luxury. It was such an atmosphere, you have some who just brooding about the whole evacuation but the others says, "Oh we could learn things and we don't have to cook. Oh this is great." And it depends all up to the individual. And then our mess hall, we had a chef named Frank Shimohara, and he did wonders. Many times we had mutton, the sheep meat. We used to get that and it just stunk. But Frank knew how to prepare that. So we had a good meal. But the other mess halls who did not know how to prepare that, they said, oh my gosh that stinky stuff. So you know from that point, we received the same kind of food, I mean vegetables and you know. But the way you prepare it was really something. 

I heard that for the first six months or so at least at another camp, they didn't have any fresh vegetables until they planted and they were able to harvest. It was all canned food and so it really -- how you prepare the foods available makes a difference but the raw ingredients make a difference, too. And you know, it's not the government giving them fresh vegetables. Did you have farms around Poston Three also?

Well we had the watermelon and the honeydew. Oh my gosh how sweet it was. Of course they used to deliver to all the other camps, too oh but it was delicious. And then vegetable portion, I do not really remember. We had daikon and potatoes. But anyway they had a hog farm, chicken farm. And at Tule Lake, they had a good vegetables there. And so they were shipping us so much of that to the other camps. And Santa Fe, they say they used to have a farm but when I got there, there were no vegetable farms at all. 

At first we were allowed to go out in a small group. We had that privilege and then when one of our leader was being transferred to I don't know where, which camp, but he was being transferred. And we were all lined up at the back gate to bid farewell to him. So we were all lined up over the border patrol, there were about seven or eight border patrols there outside the gate, told us to go back to our barracks. But we did not obey them, we stood there. Then they threw a tear gas canister at us and unfortunately for the border patrol, the breezes blowing toward [them] and they just ran for cover. And we just laughed and I heard that some people threw rocks at them. That made them angry. Oh they got their clubs, they came after us. And one of the men, well senseless I think, stood up and said "atsuwade" you know, get together. And the border patrol just whacked him on the head and then his son in law was. He could just see him, you know, his father in law being whacked, and he is a judoist, I think he was a sandan or yodan, third or fourth degree in Judo. He was really strong. He stood up and held two border patrols like this but the third one came in, whacked his head and he went down but that was the only disturbance we had at Santa Fe.

And then we we all went back to our barracks. And then, the border patrol come and we had from you know the suitcase and duffel bags, we had to take everything out and we had our sweatshirt, had an emblem of Hoshidan on here. And we had to cut it out, so we all had hole in our sweatshirts after that. And then soon after, I don't know how long it took them to put up a barbed wire fence.

The group that came from Tule Lake to Santa Fe the first group, consisted of about 75 members. And the second group which I was in consisted about 125. So altogether there were 200 of us Hoshidans in Santa Fe at that time. And then 200 of them in the four barracks. That means 50 to a barrack. We only had certain amount of space in between the bed. Oh we were really sardine packed in the barracks. So we learned our lesson. 

After the stockade opened, we were placed in the barracks not as a bunch but three or four here and four or five in the other barracks, all separated amongst the older internees who were there before. 

Do you think you were troublemakers? 

No, to me. I have said many thing but physically I haven't done anything bad, I feel. Yes. But word-wise from my mouth I really said many things about U.S. 

Well were they your observations of what U.S. did? I mean they are real things, right? 

Yes. Well of course at that time, I didn't sound right to them. Because back of my mind, I always had that feeling of being discriminated. So I just fought it back. But during school time I never fought back when I was called "slant eyes" or "japs" or like "You're from the land of the Rising Sun of a bitch." I never fought back. I just took it in and just laughed it off because it's no use because they're in a group. So I had no chance. But coming back to this U.S. against myself, I had no reservation at all I said everything that came to my mind at that time. I had no reservation. I was, pardon my expression, damn mad. I was so angry. Yeah but like I say my feeling changed 180 degrees when I heard that statement at Santa Fe at the end of the war. That was really comforting. It was. I didn't think U.S. would bend their back then give us that chance. I really thought it that way. Yes.

I know you can't speak for 200 people, but do you think most people in your groups were of like mindedness like you? Or there was many different, whole range? 

It's really hard to say. I believe most of the Kibeis were. But there were many Niseis who who didn't know anything about Japan, but still ended up like this. So I cannot say for the others but for myself I went all out, no reservation at all.

You had nothing to lose. 

Well actually as I have mentioned before I was concerned, though.

You're an American citizen. This is your country and you sure didn't want to be stuck somewhere else. 

Yes. Well my rights were taken away -- that was the main thing. My rights were taken away so I just wanted out. You know in Japanese they say shikata ga nai, cannot be helped. The way things are so let it be. But I didn't take it that way at that time. 

You said that when you left Santa Fe you were taken to Crystal City. But your dad stayed?

No, my dad went also because at that time, the camp closed. And during my stay in Santa Fe, the group from Poston came in. This is after the war, now. 

Who were they? 

I cannot say for sure because I haven't heard. I know a friend who was in that group. But I haven't talked about it and he doesn't want to talk about it. But he is American citizen. He didn't mean renounce his citizenship and yet he was pulled into Santa Fe. So I feel that they did not go through the physical when they were called upon. So in other words they were of evading the draft. So they were put into the Santa Fe and then another group was the Bismarck group. And when we were not released were sent to Crystal City. That was it. 

And you weren't released because you talk too much. 

Probably so that's why I wanted to read my paper. I'd like to find out. [laughs] I must have been a bad boy. I must have been.

Yes so most of the internees that came from elsewhere like Bismarck and Poston, they were released. And then whoever considered "bad boys" were sent to Crystal City. And then upon arriving at Crystal City I met up with Peruvians and Germans. The Germans, I heard they were brought there from South America South and Central America. And the Peruvians well, Peru and Japanese ancestry. And I've heard of most of the Peruvians, they repatriated to Japan from Crystal City. And then the Germans left the camp not too long after we arrived there and were sent to Ellis Island. And what I heard, they weren't to be deported to Germany.

I have to tell you another thing about Santa Fe. When we corresponded, we could use a stamp, put on three cent stars but we at the stamp side corner we write, "Prisoner of War," postage free. And all our mails were censored so incoming and outgoing that there must have been a hole. Incoming, I had many holes in it and then the thing is people who were so desperate in trying to get the information inside the camp, the family and outside camp would make tsukemono, like things like that, and they put a note in the balloon, tie it up and put it in there in the center and then fill it up. And then we get tsukemono and start eating it -- what's this in here? Pull it out, there a balloon, and open up there's the information in there. That's how we got the secret information from outside. So we had fun, when we received our letter there is a cut out. So we'd get together and we used to try and figure out, what kind of word would fit in here? [laughs]  

So things are you know rolling along and I'm glad that I could talk about the past. I don't have that feeling at all now because the younger generation are so much interested in it. And I'm happy to tell my part. And I hope others do too because this is only my experience. 

There are many people who are so bitter that they will go to their graves without saying anything.

That's it. So my mind has completely changed. But so, camp wasn't all waste. It was really a learning thing. It was a learning thing. In a way I appreciate this experience. 

But it's because you made it so. 

That's, that's true. Because I made it. I really appreciate this experience now.

Interview conducted by Grace Megumi Fleming. JAMsj thanks Grace for allowing the museum to archive and share these oral histories